In this far ranging dialogue, scientist Radin separates magic into three categories: divination, force of will, and theurgy (evoking spirits – God force – through ceremony). Divination would include such things as tarot cards, rolling dice, and runes. He says of the other two: There is the “force of will in which your intentions impress into the world and manifest things – shape the world somehow. The third category is theurgy, which is a word that roughly means ‘God work’ but the connotation is that you can make the gods work for you. In the traditional magical ceremonial context, it’s evoking spirits and getting them to do things on your behalf.” Radin has studied what science has to say about precognition, clairvoyance, force of will, psychokinetic effects, mind/matter interaction effects, and more. He speaks of the difficulty of studying these phenomena in laboratory settings. Both Toms and Radin share some fascinating and “magical” stories from their own lives. Radin has found in his research over many decades that “the secret power of the universe is not made out of matter and energy and physical stuff but is probably made out of consciousness which is not physical . . . Consciousness is more fundamental than the constructs we have of space and time and matter and energy.”
